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Written by Ed   
Wednesday, 27 May 2009 23:47
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I came across an article online (hosted on a scientific journal website) that comments upon the similarity of religion and science. While it isn't the most eloquent paper I've read on the matter, it appears to be neutral (lack of political agend) and well thought out. He does what all scientists (should) do, scrutinize all assumptions and offer full transparency to the layman when the answer is unknown. Many scientists and (almost?) all politicians fail to offer such scrutiny and transparency of their work. Even Einstein, Dawkins and Obama are fallible... they are often wrong too. ;-)
I'll paraphrase/summarize the article before offering my own analysis on the article. My comments appear in square brackets: eg [comment].

Don Page, Theoretical Physics Institute, Department of Physics, University of Alberta, http://arxiv.org/pdf/0811.0630v1

 

 

 

 

Both religion and science start with basic assumptions that cannot be proved but are taken on faith. One basic assumption that is common to both enterprises (science and religion) is the assumption that simpler hypotheses are more probable (Occam’s razor / the law of parsimony). [Both are reductionist]

 

In particular, here I wish to emphasize how both religion and science share an unproven assumption in their common element of faith in simplicity, that simpler explanations for our observations are generally better. There is also the related tacit assumption that the world is at least partially intelligible.

 

Human beings, and indeed their biological ancestors, have long noticed that there are apparent regularities in the world: eg Sex often leads to reproduction. (And by reducing venereal disease and its effects on the unborn, high fidelity leads to sound reproduction.)

 

Some regularities in the world seem so simple, such as the fact that unsupported objects fall, that God is probably not the first thing that comes into mind in trying to explain them. They are usually just taken to be facts about the world that need not be attributed to God. Other regularities, such as being given something by another human when asked, are sufficiently complex that they are often ascribed to God. But there are also intermediate cases, such as thunderstorms and ?oods, that are not so obviously simple as falling objects and yet are neither so obviously the result of God.

 

[The crux of his argument; the main point of the paper: ]

My claim is that in doing this, humans were not taking a perversely complex view of reality, ascribing different causes for everything, but rather they were attempting to simplify their understanding of the world by ascribing all complex behavior to one single class, God. So I would think that the move toward a religious viewpoint, that thunderstorms, ?oods, etc., were caused by unseen gods, was not a move away from a search for simplicity in explanations, but rather a move toward simplicity.

 

Now of course there is a strong movement [mostly blockheads that don't know what ontological means in the first place], promoted by people such as Richard Dawkins, to reduce the number of gods even further, from one to zero. Indeed, much of The God Delusion sounds like a Hebrew Old Testament prophet railing against false gods, except that Dawkins does not believe in any true God. It is certainly a matter of debate whether the simplest explanation of all that we observe is one God or zero.

 

[After this is a lot of waffle to back up his claims then a somewhat interesting conclusion. On the next page is my analysis.]


 



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rmav22   |2009-06-02 03:28:53
First comment, but there are quite a lot of points  I want to cover.

First, I disagree that preferin g simpler hypothesis implies reductionism. It is t rue that modern science is mostly rooted in reduct ionism, but it is not because the preference for s impler hypothesis. For example, the simpler hypoth esis to explain the galaxy rotation problem would  be Modified Newtonian Gravity (MOND) rather than d ark matter, which is the reductionist approach. I' m not saying MOND is correct, but this just goes t o show that simpler does not imply reductionism.

 Second, modern science may look like a religion, b ut that is purely superficial. If any of the basic  assumptions that we now hold true in science can  be shown to be false or need modification in the f uture, they will be revised. For this is the very  nature of how science progresses. This is impossib le in a religion for obvious reasons. And any poli tics that goes on in science is just that, politic s. It has nothing to do with the nature of science  itself, which I think is what this is about.

Thi rd, I didn't know empiricism is not accepted? I 'm refering to the fact that all scientific eviden ce must be empirical or empirically based and a hy pothesis must be testable using observation or exp eriment. If you meant something else then I apolog ise.

Fourth, phenomenology itself doesn't say an ything about the cause of the phenomena! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(sci... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(par... on wikipedia. So phenomenology is really a conseq uence of empiricism.

Fifth, Atheism doesn't claim  to know that God doesn't exist. Atheists believe God don't exist, but cannot give evidence to show  its non-existence (like you said on top of page 2 . Thus you don't need have a full knowledge of th e universe to be an Atheist (ie believe in the non -existence of God). Small digression: science cann ot say anything about the existence of God. Howeve r, science can say if certain phenomena or mechani sm can be explained without invoking God.

Sixth,  strictly speaking Goedel's incompletenesss theorem  states that in an axiomatic based formal system t hat is self-consistent, there are statements whose  truth value cannot be determined (ie it is incomp lete). This doesn't mean "mathematics can be c onsistent but cannot proven to be so". It mean s since mathematics appears to be self-consistent,  it has to be incomplete. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statements... for a list of undecidable statements. This is per fectly fine since we want self-consistency.

Final ly, a small but very important point. Science does  not "prove" things, for that falls in the  realm of mathematics and logic. Science can only,  through overwhelming evidence, support/falsify th e claims/predictions of a hypothesis.
Ed   |2009-06-02 18:04:37
Good comments.

1) The paper makes the comment tha t a particular theory which appears simple may not yield the correct answer. Newtonian gravity may b e simple but for it to yield the correct answer th en it may need to be modified until it gives the c orrect answer. Hence GR which may seem less simple at first sight but is in fact simpler at providin g the 'complete' picture. A more complete theory s hould be 'simpler', which is reductionist in my vi ew.

Whether MOND is simpler than Dark Matter coul d be a question of taste.

2) How Christianity has been implemented in society has changed even if t he Bible hasn't changed. That doesn't mean that I agree with the religion but rather that I'm pointi ng out that some parts are not absolute. Science * should* be different, I agree. Science should be p ure and free from politics and crazy belief struct ures but that isn't the case. It seems inherently human to hold beliefs. I do my best to separate religious institutions and their politics from the philosophical aspect, just as I try to separate s cientific beliefs from scientific fact.

3) Empiri cism isn't accepted philosophically as being concr ete. Humans can't determine what is empiric becaus e our senses could become fooled. Most of the argu ments against empiricism are philosophic, from a p ragmatic point of view it is fine. My analysis was supposed to help bridge the gap between pragmatis m and philosophic contention.

4) I think I agree with the first part. Phenomenology lacks the 'why' part of an explanation, it only gives a 'what' or 'how'. The universe exists and we can make empiri c measurements within it but we don't understand w hy the universe is here. "So phenomenology is really a consequence of empiricism." Not sure I understand your reasoning here but I think we ar e in agreement.

5) I think we are in agreement ag ain. Atheists *believe* God doesn't exist, in the same way that Christians *believe* God does exist. That bugs me. I don't like leaving explanations t o faith and believe. Militant Atheists are, howeve r, adamant that they can 'prove' God doesn't exist . I'd rather have proof than leave such a question to belief.

6) Thanks. I may ask you for a fuller explanation later.

7) A fair point again, althou gh we generally accept such overwhelming evidence as a proof. Although we shouldn't.
rmav22   |2009-06-03 00:43:26
Thanks Ed!

1) Reductionism in general I think imp lies one have to explain a complex system as the s um of its parts, but this doesn't neccessarily mea n it will be simpler or more complete. Of course, it would depend on your definition of simple. So I would argue that MOND is mathamatically simpler t han dark matter.

2) I think I can agree on that.

3) Ok, I don't know what philosophers really say about empiricism so I will leave it at that. I'm q uite satisfied with the fact that people will agre e on what they see from an instrument readout.

4) My reasoning is that since phenomenology only con cerns consistency with theory (the scientific defi nition, not the colloquial usage), thus it places emiprical evidence above all else.

5) I didn't kn ow militant atheists insisted this. I'm pretty sur e Dawkins said he thinks it is highly improbable f or God to exist so he doesn't believe it. Not sure about the others.

6) Sure, I'll make a separate post about it. I need some time to brush up on the subject again though. For those who are intereste d I'd recommend the book, "Goedel, Escher, Bac h: an Eternal Golden Braid" it's a brilliant a nd really clever book, which talks about all sorts of other things too. Plus it has lots of 'easter eggs'!
Ed   |2009-06-03 11:01:33
3) Well, if only it was that simple. If we are on separate sides of the world and make the same meas urement at the same time then how can we be sure t hat our measurements agree? How can we be sure we made measurements at the exact same time? There is always some error and I think that serves as a po int of contention with empiricism. I'm not saying that I fully agree with that line of reasoning but I can't provide a concrete argument against it.

4) It is supposed to be used as a way of making th e universe empiric (I think) but it doesn't quite achieve that. As wiki says it relates observations to one another but it doesn't necessarily explain 'why'. Using a wiki example: Heat doesn't flow fr om a cold object to a hot object. We know that ta citly and could form a 'law' from it but that woul d be a phenomenological law. Call me facetious but we could as easily say "Well God prevents hea t flow from a cold object to a hot one. End of sto ry." The conclusion is the same in my mind, wh ich is unsatisfying.
rmav22   |2009-06-03 19:18:14
3) That's easy. One way would be using computers t o start both experiments, triggered by a signal (t hat accounts for the distance between the two loca tions should precision of the experiment demands i t). Store the results electronically and compare a fterwards.

Anyway, I think I finally understand w hat you are trying to say in the original post.

B y "phenomenological universe" you mean we can never understand the true causes for some phen omena in the universe. And by "empirical unive rse" you mean all phenomena can be completely understood by following the proper scientific meth odology?
Ed   |2009-06-04 21:08:20
3) I guess I gave a crap example? Precision is obv iously finite but on top of that there is frame is sues and synchronicity with GR... but that's anoth er longer story.


And yep that last part is corre ct, that's what I was trying to say.
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